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  •  and it's time (4.00 / 15)

    we let the experts - the Iraqis - sort it out.  Did anyone fucking teach us Democracy?  We made it up as we went.  It ain't patented, it ain't perfect, it ain't complete.  Why are we so obscenely insistent that we should teach it.
    If we don't stand up for the kooks, who will? - Dean McCoppin

    by PSoTD on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 01:40:44 PM PDT

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    •  Wow (4.00 / 3)

      Brilliantly said. I wish there was a way to update my own diary entry, because this is exactly how I should have ended it.
      The Empirical Left is here!

      by Chris Bowers on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 01:42:27 PM PDT

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      •  excellent (none / 0)

        One of the best entries I've read in a long time, Chris. As for me, all I know is that there were too many unknowns last year, even for experts that study this stuff all the time, to justify an invasion. But we did, and we are in crapshoot-land now, my friend.

        By the way, your essay amounts to a pretty good argument against democracy in general. How are we to vote well if we do not know the things we need to know to make informed decisions?

        Of course, we can use experience...this type of candidate has usually yielded this type of result --- that kind of candidate has usually yielded another type of result. I usually go with candidates that seem the most honest, are reluctant but not afraid to use military force, try to use the U.N. for its stated purpose, have no interest in legislating biblical morality, is not beholden to corporate interests and would expect to be treated as he or she would expect to be treated by others.

        Usually when you get those kinds of leaders, you never end up having to figure out what the hell we're doing in a place like Iraq and how the hell we're going to get out of it.

        Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's ass. - Barry Goldwater, 1981

        by Doug in SF on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 02:51:38 PM PDT

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        •  argument *for* democracy (4.00 / 3)

          I see the diary less as an argument against democracy than as a call to renewed democratic conversation. All of the items that Chris lists are things that we, our neighbors, and our elected officials know nothing, little, some, a lot about; so I see this as a reminder that we all have a lot to learn. And we can learn from each other. It seems to me that the essence of a truly democratic society is found in just such conversations, in which each of us shares her knowledge, admits to having wide gaps in knowledge, and opens up to learning. Not only is this how we can come to vote well, it is how we can come to live well.

          "All efforts to render politics aesthetic culminate in one thing: war." -- Walter Benjamin

          by Damo on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 03:03:18 PM PDT

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          •  sort of... (none / 0)

            ...I shouldn't have said the "argument against democracy" thing, it was really a sidebar. We don't live in a true democracy, nor would we want to, because then each of us would actually have to amass the wealth of knowledge described above, not just about Iraq, but about everything, in order to live and vote well. And frankly, it isn't efficient nor are most of us up to the task. It takes a lifetime to learn those things, then we need another lifetime to learn about Medicare, and another about Israel, etc.

            So, in order to improve efficiencies, we live in a representative democracy. We must trust those we elect to hire equally trustworthy experts, who must focus on their little areas, then advise the executive, who must be wise enough to figure out what the experts are talking about, and then communicate to the public why any particular action is being taken.

            Where our knowledge must absolutely be "up to the task" is not on the intricacies of any particular issue, but on whether and how our leaders are doing their jobs. Some of this does indeed require a modicum of knowledge and curiosity about important issues and the sensibilities to figure out what various outcomes might be. Even this requires a fair amount of discipline, but not nearly what Chris is asking for. But it's beyond what most of our fat, dumb and happy public are willing to do these days.

            Going back to the main point --- a good decision on Iraq at this point really requires that someone or a small group of people know all the information requested in the diary entry, and must be equally adept at coming up with related policy. And we have to trust our leaders (and also independent sources) to do so. Thus I wrote the short description of what I think is important in a leader.

            Unfortunately, finding out whether our leaders are doing their jobs is more difficult than ever, as our major news sources merge into a few conglomerates and our leaders become more secretive. Deregulation of the media is one of the worst things Clinton ever agreed to. Bush actively making the government less and less transparent is criminal. The Internet is a godsend, and probably the only reason there is anyone standing up to Bush at this point.

            I guess what it comes down to is, yeah, I don't know all that stuff about Iraq, or even half of it. I never pretended to (like certain administration officials). On the other hand I have never offered an opinion here about what we need to do in Iraq (except I was pretty damn sure we shouldn't have gone in). But fortunately I have been diligent enough to figure out that our leaders have betrayed our trust, are constantly hiding from us, and are selling us out. Iraq is merely a symptom of that --- one of many.

            Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's ass. - Barry Goldwater, 1981

            by Doug in SF on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 05:42:43 PM PDT

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            •  Re: sort of... (none / 0)

              I'm not really talking here about democracy as a particular system of state political organization. For the purpose of this diary, I'm thinking of it more as a form of social behavior involving learning and sharing and decision making and creating, which I happen to prefer to approach as a set of interrelated, discursive, and radically participatory processes. In that sense, I believe the diary highlights the inevitable incompleteness of knowledge and, thus, the need for individuals to rely on each other collectively to achieve any given societal goal. I don't think this precludes or even has much to do with whether we organize our political system along "representative" lines. I do think it precludes justifications of authority of the type that the diary reacts against (for example, imposing our will on others, etc.). I also don't think it's useful to see Chris's list as a finite set of knowledge to be "amassed" by experts. As I wrote in my previous comment, each of us has his or her own kind of familiarity/expertise with these and other issues, and each of must rely on others to access and generate new knowledge and make and re-make decisions.

              "All efforts to render politics aesthetic culminate in one thing: war." -- Walter Benjamin

              by Damo on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 08:46:04 PM PDT

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      •  I really am starting to enjoy your stuff (none / 0)

        This is your second one that I read. The first one was "The Democratic party doesn't stand for anything"

        Your good, man!

        They (the Republicans) remind me of teenagers who got their inheritance too soon and couldn't wait to blow it. -- Bill Clinton Democratic Unity Dinner 3/25/04

        by brooklyndem on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 02:52:46 PM PDT

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    •  wishful thinking (none / 0)

      They will "sort it out" via civil war.  Democracy will most likely not arise naturally, at least not in the next century.  The unfortunate fact is that we are affected by how Iraq turns out.  It isn't acceptable for Iraq to become a well-funded Afghanistan.  Only in your rose-colored fantasy-world do we walk away from Iraq and it becomes a well-behaved nation citizen.

      We win when people think.

      by jbrians on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 01:49:29 PM PDT

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      •  We invaded... (none / 0)

        We took it over...

        We killed their leaders...

        We disbanded their army...

        We have tanks in their streets...

        We gave them $87 billion...

        What more do we need to do (if leaving is too rose-colored a notion) before Iraq becomes a "well-behaved nation citizen"?

        What further behavior modifaction methods would you propose?

        I rock knobs!

        by Jumbo on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 01:55:50 PM PDT

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      •  Yes, it's a mess (3.66 / 3)

        And no, I don't think it's going to be easy for the Iraqis to work it out - but what are they going to be better invested in as a nation, something they create, or something we force upon them?

        I'm not saying run away.  I'm saying they self-determine, we help them implement if we can.  

        If we don't stand up for the kooks, who will? - Dean McCoppin

        by PSoTD on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 01:56:11 PM PDT

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      •  Re: wishful thinking (3.66 / 3)

        It's too easy to discuss this as if the only options are continued military occupation on the one hand and "walking away" on the other. We have spent the past several years destroying Iraq, so we certainly have obligations there. That doesn't mean we carry out those obligations our way and our way alone. The course of the Iraqi recovery must be directed by the Iraqi people. Our job is to support Iraqi initiatives to build sustainable political and physical infrastructures, not hold the place hostage while selling it out to corporate interests.

        "All efforts to render politics aesthetic culminate in one thing: war." -- Walter Benjamin

        by Damo on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 02:13:03 PM PDT

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      •  We don't know that "civil" war (none / 0)

        is inevitable; certainly some violence is likely to break out especially if the transfer of power is handed over to an illegitimate representative. But that's actually something we could control.

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 02:23:41 PM PDT

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      •  Budget for 190+ nation-citizens? (none / 0)

        This is the kind of liberal fantasyland that the neocons have bastardized into the pre-emptive nation building yarn.

        Let's go around the world and count how many of the 190+ "nations" around the world are not well-behaved nation citizens.

        Then subtract from the US national budget and find out how far in the negative we go.

        One year+ of Iraq already has us down by what quarter of a trillion, half a trillion?

        by subodhatal on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 02:30:05 PM PDT

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        •  well... (none / 0)

          I opposed the invasion to begin with because Iraq wasn't a real problem for us then.  I am just saying that, given the situation today, it will be a problem for us if we leave.  Unlike some African nations, a failed state in Iraq isn't just bad for Iraq's citizens.  It's bad for us too.

          We win when people think.

          by jbrians on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 03:27:07 PM PDT

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    •  well technically (none / 0)

      The Founders did have a lot of "learning" at their disposal in the tomes of the philosophers of the Enlightenment, the Greeks, etc.

      Today we could provide Iraq with a model of democracy presented by those philosophers and which proved quite helpful to us, and we could show them a little bit of how our "democracy" works (or better, how it's supposed to work) and then definitely, let them figure shit out themselves.

      by Greg on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 02:29:22 PM PDT

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      •  People in Iraq (4.00 / 2)

        are equally as educated as the folks here; many of them are probably more informed about the writings of the Enlightenment and the Greeks then we here are.  We could help the Iraqis the most, it seems to me, if we'd go back and learn something from those people who supposedly "helped us".  And if we learned something from our own long history of mistakes with democracy, rather than assuming we own the franchise.

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 02:35:37 PM PDT

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      •  Learning versus teaching (none / 0)

        I agree, we can show how a democracy works.  That's a lot different than saying here's your constitution, here's your government structure, here's your unelected representatives handpicked by us.
        If we don't stand up for the kooks, who will? - Dean McCoppin

        by PSoTD on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 03:34:22 PM PDT

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