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  •  wishful thinking (none / 0)

    They will "sort it out" via civil war.  Democracy will most likely not arise naturally, at least not in the next century.  The unfortunate fact is that we are affected by how Iraq turns out.  It isn't acceptable for Iraq to become a well-funded Afghanistan.  Only in your rose-colored fantasy-world do we walk away from Iraq and it becomes a well-behaved nation citizen.

    We win when people think.

    by jbrians on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 01:49:29 PM PDT

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    •  We invaded... (none / 0)

      We took it over...

      We killed their leaders...

      We disbanded their army...

      We have tanks in their streets...

      We gave them $87 billion...

      What more do we need to do (if leaving is too rose-colored a notion) before Iraq becomes a "well-behaved nation citizen"?

      What further behavior modifaction methods would you propose?

      I rock knobs!

      by Jumbo on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 01:55:50 PM PDT

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    •  Yes, it's a mess (3.66 / 3)

      And no, I don't think it's going to be easy for the Iraqis to work it out - but what are they going to be better invested in as a nation, something they create, or something we force upon them?

      I'm not saying run away.  I'm saying they self-determine, we help them implement if we can.  

      If we don't stand up for the kooks, who will? - Dean McCoppin

      by PSoTD on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 01:56:11 PM PDT

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    •  Re: wishful thinking (3.66 / 3)

      It's too easy to discuss this as if the only options are continued military occupation on the one hand and "walking away" on the other. We have spent the past several years destroying Iraq, so we certainly have obligations there. That doesn't mean we carry out those obligations our way and our way alone. The course of the Iraqi recovery must be directed by the Iraqi people. Our job is to support Iraqi initiatives to build sustainable political and physical infrastructures, not hold the place hostage while selling it out to corporate interests.

      "All efforts to render politics aesthetic culminate in one thing: war." -- Walter Benjamin

      by Damo on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 02:13:03 PM PDT

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    •  We don't know that "civil" war (none / 0)

      is inevitable; certainly some violence is likely to break out especially if the transfer of power is handed over to an illegitimate representative. But that's actually something we could control.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 02:23:41 PM PDT

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    •  Budget for 190+ nation-citizens? (none / 0)

      This is the kind of liberal fantasyland that the neocons have bastardized into the pre-emptive nation building yarn.

      Let's go around the world and count how many of the 190+ "nations" around the world are not well-behaved nation citizens.

      Then subtract from the US national budget and find out how far in the negative we go.

      One year+ of Iraq already has us down by what quarter of a trillion, half a trillion?

      by subodhatal on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 02:30:05 PM PDT

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      •  well... (none / 0)

        I opposed the invasion to begin with because Iraq wasn't a real problem for us then.  I am just saying that, given the situation today, it will be a problem for us if we leave.  Unlike some African nations, a failed state in Iraq isn't just bad for Iraq's citizens.  It's bad for us too.

        We win when people think.

        by jbrians on Tue Apr 20, 2004 at 03:27:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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